Alysia Nicole Harris: “I’m primarily a poet-performer”
A world-traveled poet with a Ph.D. in linguistics from Yale University and a member of Phi Beta Kappa, her performances garner millions of views on YouTube and impress with their raw emotions and candid phrases. This year, the star of “spoken word” poetry attended the Lviv Forum of Publishers and visited Kyiv with the assistance of the US Embassy in Ukraine.
I read your poem “Southern” and remembered several great writers belonging to the direction of “Southern Gothic”: Flanery O’Connor, Harper Lee, Carson McCullers and many others. But almost all of them are already dead, and their works belong entirely to the 20th century, which is also long dead. The entire aesthetic of “Southern Gothic” is based on poverty, slavery and racial discrimination. Can it be relevant today?
Many “southern” women writers still exist today. One of them, for example, is the Pulitzer Prize laureate of 2007 poet Natasha Trethewey. There are also many African-American women who live in the southern United States and create a local literary phenomenon. (A rather detailed list of them can be found here — O.Sh.). I would say that modern “southern” literature has certain, perhaps not unique, features, but those that give it a special color. This region itself is full of contradictions. On the one hand, people are incredibly friendly, polite, they try to be sincere. There is even such an expression “southern hospitality”: as soon as you walk in, you are fed, you are happy, people give you the best of what they have. But at the same time, they are characterized by a certain seclusion, formality, and secrecy. And this last feature is not a desire to hide some legacy of “slave psychology,” but the strained race relations in the southern United States that still exist. And the seclusion arises because of the closeness of whites and blacks, which has always existed here, because it comes from the very essence of slavery: your black grandmother cooked for someone white, took care of someone’s white children. And so people understand each other well, but there is also a separation, as well as a certain tension in the relationship between whites and blacks. And all this together causes the appearance of a certain mystery that exists in the aesthetics of “Southern Gothic”.
It’s about some mysterious tension that exists in the South. because it comes from the very essence of slavery: your black grandmother cooked for someone white, took care of someone’s white children. And so people understand each other well, but there is also a separation, as well as a certain tension in the relationship between whites and blacks. And all this together causes the appearance of a certain mystery that exists in the aesthetics of “Southern Gothic”. It’s about some mysterious tension that exists in the South. because it comes from the very essence of slavery: your black grandmother cooked for someone white, took care of someone’s white children. And so people understand each other well, but there is also a separation, as well as a certain tension in the relationship between whites and blacks. And all this together causes the appearance of a certain mystery that exists in the aesthetics of “Southern Gothic”. It’s about some mysterious tension that exists in the South.
You must be joking when you write in your poem: “I never met a nigger I wouldn’t hang” (I never met a nigger I wouldn’t hang)? It sounds like a quote from Harper Lee or something.
In general, it is not my voice that sounds here, but the direct speech of one of the bearers of the white southern identity. This line is a kind of evocation of the spirits of all the identities and tensions that embody the southern way of being. And this line cannot be understood correctly without the following: “I never met a white man I couldn’t buy.” And this connection between white skin and money and white color and honor spins like a coin on a rib, showing one side, then the other. There is also the idea that people can be slaves to their passions. And accumulate your desires more and more at the expense of others. This is also another meaning of the poem.
Recently, we all watched in the United States the pictorial demonstrations with all these Confederate flags. Russian politicians, who are ardent supporters of slave ownership, also actively supported these speeches. All this reminded me of a museum on a walk. Do all these people with their illusions from more than a century ago really exist? How influential and dangerous are they? I recently watched the Coen brothers’ film “Oh Where Art Thou, Brother?” with that episode about the execution of an African-American at a Ku Klux Klan sabbatical and thought: does something like that really still exist in rural and underexplored regions of America? And here you also write about the good inhabitants of the South, “We never buried our guns.” To be honest, the whole thing scared me a little.
The Ku Klux Klan really still exists.
As a non-governmental organization?
This is, rather, a club of gentlemen who promote the idea of an America that never existed. These people hold fast to their illusions of white supremacy. Although it is very easy to feel superior by persecuting and belittling other people. And it’s not happening in poor rural areas, as you said. For example, Charlottesville, Virginia, where the main demonstrations took place, has one of the best universities in the US. Therefore, it is not at all necessary that only poor white people share such views. There are many people with money and opportunity willing to promote themselves in this way, and they feel the danger. If you have too much money and power, you begin to perceive the very idea of sharing these benefits as unfair. But this idea is valid. If someone has too much and someone has too little, then it would be fair to divide it up. But they think as if they are losing something of their own. And this phenomenon is characteristic not only for the USA, but also for Germany, the Scandinavian countries, where there is a large influx of emigrants who fled the war. And now we see feedback, because people are different and they have to share their resources. But these people do not want to share, because they see the only way to preserve their power: to take away the power of others. This idea is inherent in the Ku Klux Klan movement, Nazis and all other right-wing radical forms.
So this terrible source of “Southern Gothic” nightmares still exists?
Yes. But there are many beautiful things in the south. I am proud of my native land and I think it would be simplistic to focus all attention exclusively on these people. Because in the south there are also black residents, Latinos, aboriginal Indians — and all of them are outside the boundaries of the typical “southern discourse” in literature. And I wish the various media, writers, journalists would not focus so much on southern white men. Many other experiences and legacies of the past are present here, and they do not promote the idea of superiority of one person over another, but are focused on the spirits of this land, vegetation — this should also be paid attention to. It’s a pity that the public is more interested in negativity, sensationalism and obscenities.
So Flanery O’Connor of the 21st century would be completely different?
Of course. She is a great writer, but I think that every author is a product of his time. What O’Connor wrote about fits her time. Today, the whole society has changed: our sensibilities, our way of looking at things, our values, our fears.
One of her sensitive nerves touched the confrontation between American Catholics and Protestants. Does it still exist?
There are not so many Protestants in New Orleans, there are enough Catholics as well, and not only that: there are many people who profess Voodoo cults and other original beliefs. Although, of course, there are more Protestants than Catholics. In general, in my opinion, the difference between Catholics and Protestants is not so great as to somehow provoke conflicts and influence southern identity in the modern context. Although in Europe it is probably perceived quite differently than in the US.
In one of your poems there is a line: “tell me you are not the Milky way, you are not milk” — “tell me that you are not the Milky Way, that you are not milk”. And it is almost impossible to translate it literally into Ukrainian, because the play of words is lost. Ukrainians see the edge of our Galaxy not as spilled milk, but as scattered salt. The Chumaks were merchants who carried this salt in carts in sacks with holes, and through the holes the salt fell to the ground. Can you think of any other pieces of your poetry that have not been translated into other languages?
I don’t have many translations, but two of my poems were translated into Spanish. But even in the dialect of American English that I speak, there are words that are completely incomprehensible to others. In one of my poems there is the word “siddity”, which is a special term used by African Americans to denote superior people.
My translator couldn’t translate it, but I don’t see anything wrong with it. After all, I am primarily a pop poet-performer, the sound qualities of my poems are important to me. Of course, I could have written “arrogant” (arrogant, haughty) instead of “siddity”, but it doesn’t stick. The very word, in its rhythm, reminds me of the actions of people who are “siddity”: they think that they are better than others, when in fact they are not. The way they behave is also a kind of class performance when they try to act like refined bourgeois, although they don’t really have a reason to do so. And this word especially plays in my cultural context, because I write specifically for people who are in it. I use our common words, and there is a certain intimacy, closeness. And it does not necessarily require translation, because the reader can simply understand from the context what exactly it is about.
You are involved in various poetry slams, which in the USA are called “spoken word poetry movement”. I just watched your very emotional rendition of “That girl” on YouTube. This poem is about a girl in love with an indifferent and irresponsible boy. I noticed one line there “My vagina is not your walk-in closet”. The audience immediately started applauding when they heard this. And I still remembered one of the comments under this poem: “IMPRESSIVE. This poem is written on behalf of all women. That’s exactly how we all feel today!” But, in my opinion, it sounds a bit rough for poetry. I have repeatedly heard feminists insist that their body parts should not be treated as tools to satisfy some need. And we know this term “objectification” in advertising, when some product is advertised with the help of naked women. Don’t you think that when a poet writes about parts of the human body in a literal sense, it also leads to objectification? I mean, using such words can make you more recognizable. And this is also a kind of exploitation.
So. But that’s exactly how I feel. I feel that I am being exploited, objectified, used. Why shouldn’t I use language that conveys that feeling? Why should I embellish reality, make it attractive to everyone? I actually feel like I’ve been in and then out. I feel like a door is opening inside of me for anyone to walk in, take what they need, and come out fully clothed, protected, loved and cared for because of me and what I gave them. And then he can go back there, discard what he didn’t like, and take something else.
So this is your answer to men?
Yes, but not only for men. I want to show how society as a whole affects my female socialization and tells me exactly what I deserve. And the very process of literary creation simply openly calls all this by its name. I am trying to separate this misconception from my identity and my understanding of what it means to love and be loved. Yes, I try to criticize the men I’ve been in relationships with. And this poem is a reminder to myself that I don’t deserve it. I do not have and will not accept such an attitude towards myself.
But poetry is an indirect language. Can we use such unambiguous words?
Sometimes poetry can speak directly, and sometimes — metaphorically. Sometimes the most beautiful parts of a poem can emerge through heavy imagery, when someone speaks very directly, without embellishment. Someone can write: “Birds, trees, grass — I can’t live without you…” And there is a contrast between such a lyrical language and a more direct one. Because of this contrast, the energy of life appears in poetry. A poem takes on a viscera, and poetry lives in the body, even though it really only exists in our imaginations.
I did not quite understand the meaning of your poem “Because the people on the shores of the Nile were so kind”. It’s like retelling your conversations with US-hating Arabs and Muslims. And you try to please them by saying that the USA, Jews and Christianity are pure evil. At least you agree with them when they say yes. Did this actually happen or is it just an imaginary situation? Don’t you think that such a situation can even be generalized? I mean poets who try to please their readers in order to attract more attention to themselves. If you want to become a fashionable, famous, desired author, then you simply have to write such poems that the public expects from a poet today. And so you should first conduct marketing research, study people’s expectations, and then try to meet them.
This poem is about my life experience in Egypt. He was full of love and care. People who cared about me told me so much about life in this world, taught me true passions. My first encounter with passions happened when I was twenty years old and I lived in Egypt. And my understanding of friendliness and sincerity was also formed there and then. And my Christian faith also deepened in Egypt. So, this country, these people, this culture greatly contributed to my self-awareness. If I had not lived there for six months, I would never have become who I am. I am very grateful to those people for that, so the first part of my poem is to thank them for everything they have done.
The second part of the poem draws attention to the situation when people absolutely do not understand where you come from. These people may like you, but they have no idea about the context of your life and the country you came from. Of course, there were many abstract things in the poem, and not all of them actually happened. Sometimes I felt complete misunderstanding.
Did you have to lie to them about the USA, Jews and Christianity? There you have the line “Of course you’ll tell them the Bible was completely faked, greedy Americans eat dogs and people who eat pigs are dirty.” How could you, a Christian, say that to them?
Not the same about Jews and Christianity. More about the political context. Some of them think, “Ah, these Christians, they are so lazy and indifferent and not really godly at all.”
And you agreed with this?
I could agree during this conversation, because it was in the context of when I wanted to tell them the whole truth about what happened in my life. For example, about loving a person of another faith and my choice to break up with that person because of the teachings of my religion. And when I hear that “Christians are not pious”, I immediately remember this case when, because of my piety, I made such a difficult choice. Therefore, please do not oversimplify: there are pious Muslims, and there are those who are not at all pious, and it is the same with Jews and Christians. Individual cases of piety do not characterize the entire religion in general, but only the beliefs of individual people.
So you just fooled these people when you agreed with their absurd ideas about the Western world? In fact, you disagreed with them?
No, but if you have ever been in the context of a conservative society, then you need to understand how it is built. The second part of the poem is about how our humanity can be distorted when it comes from another context that we don’t understand or simply don’t want to understand. Even when we like a person coming from this context and we completely accept them. When you realize that you are someone’s guest and you are warmly received, you also have to understand what topics of conversation are acceptable in the circle of these people. And what is desirable at certain moments of the conversation. And what was I supposed to do during the family dinner? Let’s not start with a broad explanation of the reasons for the Western way of life. It would just destroy our unity at that moment. And it was very important for me to be there, because I knew that it would not last long. And therefore,
This is such an unpleasant way to be pleasant.
Exactly! And this is a very “southern” thing. We have a lot of people who can be very nice in an obnoxious way.
So, in Louisiana you have to say “those dirty niggers”?
Not at all, because you have to understand the moment in which all this happens. For example, if people try to love you, sympathize with you, then you should be grateful to them even when they do not understand you. If people want to offend you, harm you, then you should tell them everything, everything that you think about them. Otherwise, if you keep silent, they might kill you, thinking that you like it. Therefore, there is a constant balance of nuances.
When I came to this poor family in southern Egypt and lived with them for six months, they slaughtered their only cow to celebrate my departure. And when they said that I didn’t have true love and devotion, I had to respond to them with gratitude and understanding.
Poetry in Ukraine is far from commerce. Usually, poets either receive grants or work in the media to earn a living. And how is it happening in the USA? Do you have any commercial poets who may well exist solely on creative activity?
Yes and no. We have poets who receive huge grants, for example, the MacArthur scholarship (currently it is 625 thousand dollars, in 1981 it was received by Joseph Brodsky, and in 2014 — by the artist Alison Bechdel, who invented the “Bechdel test” for literature and film — O.Sh.), the Guggenheim scholarship and many others. America is a big country, and there are people here who can give poetry performances and get decent fees for it. For example, I lived on money from performances for a year and a half and was even able to buy a house. Although, of course, this is not a typical case.
Are there many such poets in America?
Out of a dozen. I mostly perform in New York, but I live in Atlanta (that’s over a thousand kilometers away — O.Sh.).
It is where I can live the way I like without spending too much money. That is, what I earn is enough. Your market value as a poet depends on the economic situation, on the number of your awards, popularity on the network, and sometimes on simple luck. Would I convince my students: “Go to work as poets full-time!”? Of course not. I always say, “Just do your job well and have one more to spare. And this will allow you to have time to devote to art. And if you’re lucky enough to earn enough just from poetry, that’s great!”
What is the average fee for a poet-performer in the USA?
I don’t know anything about average rates. I received from one hundred to eight thousand dollars for one performance.
